Maximizer vs. Perfectionism, Where's the Line: With Jamal Cornelious
If you’ve ever pushed yourself—or others—to make something “just a little better” until it became overwhelming, this episode is your invitation to step back, breathe, and rethink what better actually means. Gallup-certified coach and all-around dynamic human Jamal Cornelious joins Sarah and Bill for a refreshingly honest and often hilarious deep dive into the difference between Maximizer and Perfectionism.
You’ll hear how this strength shows up in parenting, partnership, coaching, and team dynamics—and how to avoid burnout when your inner perfectionist just won’t quit. Whether you have Maximizer or just hold yourself (and others) to high standards, this conversation will leave you feeling seen, challenged, and equipped with tools to move forward with more intention and a little more grace.
Main Takeaways
Maximizer can be a powerful driver of excellence—but left unchecked, it can cross into unsustainable perfectionism.
The difference between improving and over-perfecting often lies in asking, “Am I making it better, or just different?”
High standards don’t have to equal high pressure—when you individualize expectations, people feel empowered, not overwhelmed.
Having no executing strengths in your top 10 doesn’t mean you can’t execute—it means you do it differently.
Trusted feedback partners are essential for Maximizers to know when to stop iterating and start shipping.
At home and at work, our strengths show up differently—but both spaces deserve our intentional talent.
Letting go of someone’s potential is hard—but honoring their chosen pace is a powerful act of respect.
Sound Bites
“You can’t let perfect be the enemy of good.”
“If you’re the one, you’re the one—and if not, we can leave now.”
“My Maximizer won’t even let me start unless it sees potential for greatness.”
“Sometimes, the MVP is the most excellent version of ‘good enough.’”
“I challenge while processing and accepting—yes, and I’ll still debate you on the way there.”
“My wife calls me a hundred-percenter—if I’m in, I’m all in.”
“Competition and Maximizer together? That’s wanting to be the best—and better than the rest.”
“I coach people to give 100% of what they have today—not some ideal version of themselves.”
“Some kids want feedback—others just want to do cartwheels and pick dandelions.”
“I have a lot of tabs open—figuratively and literally.”
“I don’t start unless I believe it can become great. Mediocrity doesn’t motivate me.”
“Parenting is like the movie Everything Everywhere All At Once—chaotic and constant.”
“If someone won’t reach for the potential I see in them, I have to work hard not to hold it against them.”
“When I procrastinate and still expect excellence—that’s my dumpster fire moment.”
“You can execute with any strengths—it’s just a matter of how you do it.”
Bill's Top 10 CliftonStrengths
1) Individualization
2) Developer
3) Activator
4) Woo
5) Restorative
6) Empathy
7) Harmony
8) Connectedness
9) Relator
10) Learner
Sarah's Top 10 CliftonStrengths
1) Positivity
2) Woo
3) Communication
4) Harmony
5) Activator
6) Developer
7) Input
8) Individualization
9) Responsibility
10) Arranger
Official Strengths On Fire Website: https://strengthsonfire.transistor.fm
GET MORE FROM BILL AND SARAH:
Bill's info:
https://billdippel.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamdippel/
https://www.instagram.com/billdippelcoach/
Sarah's info:
https://www.wearecollinsco.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahcoachcollins/
https://www.instagram.com/sarahcoachcollins/
Transcript
Bill Dippel (00:03.636)
I cannot believe Sarah were actually online today. I can't believe it happened.
Sarah Collins (00:08.178)
my gosh, it has been like technical difficulty land.
Bill Dippel (00:11.288)
don't it's been brutal for me. I joked with you. I'm on my third modem in three days from my internet provider. Totally true. I actually have my own modem, which I put in today. And I know because I know because your husband, your husband isn't in the room with you where he's like, I sympathize.
Sarah Collins (00:17.243)
You
Bye!
Yeah, none of that means anything to me, but it sounds like a really annoying problem. Yes, last week when I was having the technical difficulties, was like, Cory, help me. And he was like, my God, have you ever restarted your computer? And I was like, I mean, I have, but like when I don't remember, are you supposed to do that frequently? He's like, yes, and close the tab. Why do you have so many things open at one time? You literally have everything running. And I was like, I don't.
Bill Dippel (00:38.808)
Hahaha.
Bill Dippel (00:44.598)
Hmm
Bill Dippel (00:49.102)
I had love.
Sarah Collins (00:52.025)
I don't know, the computer runs me, I don't run it.
Bill Dippel (00:54.382)
It sounds as if you're living in my household with my wife sometimes where she's like she got me up the other day and said the internet's down and I need to print some stuff. So get up at 5 45 in the morning. Chop. Hey, get going. Get moving. And I was like, I, know, well, we mentioned our other halves. So let me ask you a different question today. All right. Little funny about other halves when we weren't with other halves or even thinking about it now. If your strengths were a dating profile,
Sarah Collins (01:02.503)
Chop chop Aaron boys, chop chop, let's go!
Sarah Collins (01:13.603)
Okay.
Bill Dippel (01:25.218)
How would you sell your top five to a potential date?
Sarah Collins (01:31.537)
Come with me and you'll see a world of great imagination. We'll do things on the fly. We'll have a great time and you will.
Bill Dippel (01:39.906)
Hahaha.
Sarah Collins (01:48.539)
Wow, I really went for that. Really, really did.
Bill Dippel (01:50.734)
You dug in on that and I always love it when you sing. I know you always tell me I'm not a singer. I love it when you sing, so.
Sarah Collins (01:58.725)
I'm not a singer. Thank you. love that someone loves it because I love doing it, whether it's good or not. I, yeah, you know, positivity, woo, communication, harmony, and activator. Just really felt like, you know, you're going to have a good time. You're safe here. The water's warm. I'm going to avoid fights with you, especially in the beginning, which will cause issues later on in our relationship. But we can...
Bill Dippel (02:07.618)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bill Dippel (02:20.29)
Dick around, yeah.
Sarah Collins (02:24.975)
You know, do what you want. don't care wherever we go. It's cool. I'm easy to get along with. You know, I am going to bend over backwards to try to appease you because I haven't had therapy yet to tell me that I should be different. That's what the training profile based on my strengths would be.
Bill Dippel (02:31.246)
That's fair.
Bill Dippel (02:40.162)
Not not this therapy yet, right? I've had other therapy to yes, sure, sure. That makes total sense. that's see, that's a good sales pitch. That's a great sales pitch. I do like the sales pitch. So, I think if I was going to step in from a dating side, I might say, hey, this is it's similar to yours because we both lead in the relationship domains. But I would tell you that it's all about you. It's all about me and you and how we
Sarah Collins (02:47.783)
Yeah, yeah, what about you? Yeah, yeah, of course. Like...
Sarah Collins (03:07.879)
Hmm.
Bill Dippel (03:10.136)
build that together, right? How can I help develop and push? How can I see the unique things that you bring to yourself in the relationship? All of those things are tied directly into my one and two really significantly. And don't worry, I'll be the life of the party with my woo kicking in at a lot of things. And if we're having fun with a group, don't worry, I'm going help push that along. So I would
Sarah Collins (03:28.303)
Yeah, there you go.
Sarah Collins (03:34.939)
Absolutely.
Bill Dippel (03:35.894)
I would probably push it. I've had people joke with me that this should be a dating system where
Sarah Collins (03:42.471)
I don't know though. Do you think it could be because it's never that cut and dry when I've seen people in relationship. Sometimes you get people who are opposites and that really works for them and sometimes it really doesn't work and then they're divorced. They're like, want to know why we're divorced? Let's point to the things we're at my top and we're at their bottom.
Bill Dippel (03:45.166)
I don't know.
No.
Bill Dippel (04:02.165)
Yeah, yeah, and I would tell you, Renee and I are very opposite, high strategic, me all relationship and those things that you loved about them early on, those are the, those are the things, right? We're later. Absolutely. Yeah.
Sarah Collins (04:06.446)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (04:12.164)
Yeah, let's drive you crazy later. Which is like how it is with everything, whether it's strengths or not, you know? You're like, my God, you're so analytical. And then later you're like, why are you so analytical? You don't even care about feelings. Not that I have personal experience with that at all. That's just like hypothetical.
Bill Dippel (04:24.717)
No, no, no. I mean, once the pool's built, the GC won't care in the back, Cory. So what's going on? So I'm sorry, you'd have to be a listener of multiple episodes to get that joke. So sorry.
Sarah Collins (04:35.724)
Yeah!
Sarah Collins (04:40.762)
That's exactly right. Now we have a guest today. I'm really curious of his answer. And also I know almost nothing about our guest today, which is quite unusual. I feel like I usually know fairly intimately a lot about guests in some way or another. And today we have a guest that I don't know that much about. So I don't even know, are you married? Are you partnered? Are you single? I know nothing about you, Jamal. So.
Bill Dippel (04:48.588)
Bill Dippel (05:05.111)
Well, and Jamal, before you jump in, we should point out to our listeners, I don't know anything about you. So generally we have on clients, coaches, people we have a long term relationship. People are like, they're all getting together. We've never met you. So aside from five minutes before this, we're excited. So, yeah. So Jamal, hit us, hit us with your top 10. But then give us the give us the essential stuff to what?
Sarah Collins (05:13.742)
Yes!
Sarah Collins (05:20.272)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (05:21.07)
Well, I'm happy to be the mystery box.
Sarah Collins (05:23.524)
I know, so we're excited, like tell us everything.
Bill Dippel (05:34.059)
Give us the details.
Jamal Cornelious (05:35.299)
Absolutely. First of all, Sarah, appreciate you jumping in in the song. We might have to do a karaoke night when we all meet in person and make this happen. Just FYI, that's one of my favorite things to do. Never met a stage I didn't like. going along with the never met a stage I didn't like, my top 10 adaptability, maximizer, communication, activator, ideation, positivity, command, competition, woo, and relator. And that woo later at the bottom is always a fun combo.
Sarah Collins (05:41.999)
it
Sarah Collins (05:48.166)
Sounds familiar.
Sarah Collins (06:02.448)
Ooh, well later, I love it. Okay, so I love this because you come in with six influencing themes. That's right, friends, you heard that right. Three relationship building, one strategic thinking. We won't mention the missing purple of it all. But we know you have to get things done. You have to get things done. So give us a little bit about you. Let us, the audience get to know you and let us get to know you as well.
Bill Dippel (06:03.789)
That is.
Bill Dippel (06:16.279)
Hehehehehe
Jamal Cornelious (06:17.008)
Someone else can get it done.
Jamal Cornelious (06:26.414)
Yeah, I love the conversation starting around the dating profile and relationships. I've been married to my wonderful wife Tia for 13 years, been together for 18 or more. I don't know. It's early 2000s. We'll let everyone else do the math. And in the spirit of a maximizer, one of the funniest things is my wife calls me a hundred percenter because when I'm doing something, I'm either all in or all out. There's never lukewarm. There's never one toe in. If I'm committed, I pour everything into it and it might take over my life.
Sarah Collins (06:49.606)
Mmm.
Jamal Cornelious (06:54.944)
And if I'm not committed, I'm not interested, not happening. So that's kind of my relationship philosophy, too. If it were a dating profile, it's like, if you're the one, then you're the one. I'm all in. And if you're not, we can just leave now.
Sarah Collins (06:58.075)
I love that.
Sarah Collins (07:04.762)
Yeah. See you later. Okay. I love that.
Bill Dippel (07:07.767)
Wow. Wow. Makes that quick. And you mentioned your woo, woo, woo, relator. We just did an episode verse woo versus relator like you. I happen to have both of them in my top 10. So you and I share that component where it was I thought it was stupendous era where we talked about high woo with you and high relator with someone else. Somebody ended up calling us.
Sarah Collins (07:17.35)
Mm-hmm.
Bill Dippel (07:34.253)
what was it, the glitter covered octopus, Jamal. The glitter draws you in on the woo and then the relator grabs you with the suction cups and lops you on. So how does that resonate with your relationship side?
Sarah Collins (07:37.39)
Octopus, yes.
Jamal Cornelious (07:44.181)
wraps the tentacles around.
Sarah Collins (07:45.722)
That's right.
Jamal Cornelious (07:51.803)
would say that might be it. I'm more of a, if I had to pick like an animal or a kingdom analogy, I think I'm more of like a honeybee. Like I'm kind of a pollinator. So like if you go to an event or something, I'm going to pollinate all around the room and connect with a whole bunch of people. And at the end, we'll all come back to the hive with the four people I thought were the coolest people to hang out with. So I will end up closing out the event. I had an event last night and they literally had to kick us out because I'm always that person where you can't get enough woo. And then the final four of us who really had a lot in common will just kind of...
Sarah Collins (07:59.783)
Sarah Collins (08:10.042)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (08:15.685)
Yup.
Jamal Cornelious (08:20.142)
be ushered out of the room by security while everyone's trying to clean up.
Sarah Collins (08:23.458)
Now I would be interested if you're the two of you, and this is why I love strengths, because it's so dynamic on how strengths always look different. And I would be interested because you both have Wu Relator, but Jamal, you come at it with more influencing themes and Bill, you come at it with more relationship building themes. So I'd be interested in like the nuance of how your Wu Relators like show up in the world. If those dominant domains actually influence the outcome of how those two look in the world.
Bill Dippel (08:41.184)
Mm-hmm.
Bill Dippel (08:53.974)
Yeah, I guess maybe I'll start that off, Jamal, with from a relationship point of view. I think if I'm wooing and relating, I have the propensity to get my feelings hurt because of my high relationship themes. So if I'm looking at the downside of the woo relator, it is like you, I'm pollinating and I'm working a room.
But if I get shoved away from certain groups or if I even misperceive that somebody said something in a way where, I don't know what you're up to or where you're going, I can take that really hard. That becomes really difficult for me. Or I try to reintroduce and build that up. For a long time, I've had that problem. So once I've realized that it's all my relationship themes and that developer...
individualization. I might be over reading that situation and if I'm not, I'm definitely over reading the parts of it and just go sort it out. Build the relationship and get to it. From the relationship side, when my woo-relators work in a room, that's how I come at it. Jamal, I'm going to guess from that influencing side, you don't suffer from the, hey, I'm a little upset right now that somebody may have pushed me off a little bit. You're more, I'm going to find the four that mean the most to me.
Jamal Cornelious (10:15.812)
Yeah, it's just a sorting process for me. So I'm not, don't mind those early stages if we have a quick chat, doesn't quite align, good to meet you, we'll keep it moving. And if we have a good chat and we feel like there's something in common, one of my first things because of that woo with a relator, if I see there's potential for us to know each other beyond today, it's how do I pour into this? You do this thing, who can I connect you to that maybe I just met across the room? Let me go and make an introduction for you right now and start adding value to the relationship because I see that we can at least get, you know, beyond that outer circle.
Sarah Collins (10:17.893)
Mmm.
Sarah Collins (10:33.935)
Mmm.
Sarah Collins (10:38.576)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (10:44.546)
in a little bit, can at least be an acquaintance. Let's pour in a little bit.
Bill Dippel (10:48.054)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sarah Collins (10:48.1)
Yeah. Okay. This is so interesting. Now, Jamal, just for our information and the audience, you're a certified CliftonStrengths coach. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do in the world.
Jamal Cornelious (11:00.718)
Absolutely. So with all of my influencing themes, adaptability, number one, I, my focus area tends to be places of transformation and change. So I work with teams or individuals when they're on the verge of doing something different or new, or they feel like they're stuck and they need that kind of push to transform. So I'm always kind of attracted to something that's in the process of like metamorphosis and let me jump in and help you get fully out of that cocoon and become who you're supposed to become. So I work with teams. I like to say that
You know, I'm performance centric, but industry agnostic. I've worked in a lot of different industries from the nonprofit and government space all the way into financial services and tech. So I've had that experience. And one thing that I know is true of performance is universal. So I have a chance to work with folks in all of those walks of life and love the individual coaching for entrepreneurs are awesome to work with, but there's nothing better than making a team gel a little bit better. that's, that's where the magic happens.
Sarah Collins (11:31.823)
No.
Sarah Collins (11:54.874)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (11:55.309)
So you like both the individual and the team coaching, but it sounds like you gravitate towards the team, larger team. How big of groups do you go up to? Where are you generally in your flow or where do you strive at your best?
Jamal Cornelious (12:10.988)
It really depends, I would say, at my best, those midsize groups where I can literally know everybody in the room and we can have that, bring that woo later to life, right? And get around and connect with everybody. And I remember individual stories that they're talking about in each one of the workshops. That's kind of the sweet spot. But I also said that I never met a stage I didn't like. So if you give me a room of, I've got a workshop next week with 45, you know, we can go as big as we need to. love, you know.
Sarah Collins (12:30.139)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (12:37.904)
MCing events too. So you give me a room of 300. That's fine, but that's not a workshop. I mean that would be a little bit unwieldy
Sarah Collins (12:43.108)
Yeah. Yeah, but I can see those influencing themes loving that. Now, as we transition to think about our topic today in the great strengths debate is maximizer verse perfectionism. Where is the line? And you come at us not only with maximizer at two, but with six influencing themes, which I have to imagine really play into that. So before we get into the debate question, I'm curious.
Besides, you you sort of said your wife describes you as all in or all out. How else would you describe your maximizer?
Jamal Cornelious (13:18.052)
My maximizer is it's very, it's the filter that almost won't let me engage if something is bad. Like if I don't see the potential for greatness in something, I will ignore it completely. So I spent a long time working in marketing space and if someone brought something to me that wasn't, I felt like would never get to, you know, being publishing ready, I'd rather throw it out. Let's rip it up and let's start over from scratch. I don't want to be bothered with mediocrity and go from this is kind of terrible to now it's okay.
Sarah Collins (13:24.966)
No,
Jamal Cornelious (13:46.082)
I struggle to engage there. That's one of those.
Bill Dippel (13:48.374)
Wow. That actually ties directly into the original definition for Maximizer within the Gallup world, which is, man, if you have a system like this, they're going to take it to here. But if you don't have the system, if this doesn't exist, then they're not going to build it. I don't, if I don't see it, I can't get it to that next level. Right.
Sarah Collins (13:48.452)
Okay.
Sarah Collins (14:01.54)
Mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (14:11.376)
Yeah, come back when you're ready and committed.
Sarah Collins (14:14.064)
Do you, I have heard people that I coach, because I don't have Maximizer, so I'm really coming in to this as a curious Cathy. I have heard people that I coach sometimes with Maximizer say they're not great at starting things, but they can take something that's been started and blow it up. Do you suffer from that or benefit from that? How are you when it comes to like starting from scratch?
Jamal Cornelious (14:21.616)
You're missing out.
Jamal Cornelious (14:39.824)
See, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have high activator. So I'm okay with starting, but my starting, I don't feel comfortable with the roughness of a rough draft. Like I'm not gonna bring it to you until I feel it's near final and I'm gonna give you that as the first draft. So that's how starting shows up for me. So I'll do a lot of the processing in my head, put things together. And by the time I bring it to somebody who I'm collaborating with, it's beyond an outline or a very rough draft. is...
Sarah Collins (14:41.72)
Okay. huh.
Sarah Collins (14:54.615)
Okay.
Jamal Cornelious (15:06.436)
near final and it needs refinement. It doesn't necessarily need to be started from building blocks.
Sarah Collins (15:11.504)
Do you have any issues getting the, I don't know how I wanna say this. I'm thinking about your ideation. So I'm thinking about you starting and thinking, we could do this, this and this. I'm sort of thinking like, do you have like momentum? Like, I wanna do this because you're looking to get that rough draft near perfect before you pass it along. Do you find yourself iterating a lot at the beginning with ideation or how does that play into it?
Jamal Cornelious (15:38.725)
Yeah, exactly that. I will iterate a lot and I'll think about, I'll have something that I think is set and I'll think of something that's a little bit better and say, I can make this a little bit better and plug it in and keep plugging it in and keep iterating. So it can be a challenge that I've recognized in myself. And I partnered with a writer years ago, a friend of mine, and he gave me his philosophy that I started to carry with me as my maximizer. And he said, when he's writing something, he has to ask himself at a certain point, am I making this better or am I just making it different?
Sarah Collins (16:08.934)
W H
Jamal Cornelious (16:09.168)
And if I'm just making it different, it's time to publish and move forward. If I'm making it better and there's still time available, let's get to that mountaintop. Let's get a little bit better, but let's publish it if it's just change for the change sake.
Sarah Collins (16:22.726)
So then going into the debate question, do you find that you're maximized or pushes for perfectionism? And it sounds like you've already maybe worked on some strategies, better or different. Like how has that come into play over your life?
Bill Dippel (16:36.139)
And well, and you brought up to that your activator and maximizer, you'll start it, but you will not give it to me until you have taken it out of that rough draft. It's got it can't, it's got to be a semi polished diamond. This is a perfect lead in Sarah really well done to that question, right? What is, what is perfectionism versus maximizer for you?
Sarah Collins (16:51.512)
Mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (16:57.114)
mean, it is a perennial struggle. Just candidly, Maximizer, it's a lens that I can't turn off. It's not something that's selective for me. I have to strive for perfection and I'm only really attracted to projects and people who have the ability, the option to be great. So it's really, it's the ability to reach excellence is kind of what draws me into a project or even working with individuals. So it's a tough one sometimes.
Sarah Collins (16:59.716)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (17:06.49)
Mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (17:26.138)
Perfectionism is always there and I have to remind myself that that's not really attainable, but it's an active, active reminder.
Sarah Collins (17:31.547)
Yeah. Do you find you hold people to these standards, projects to these standards? I'm just curious, because part of me is thinking like, wow, to be in your life must be like a lot of pressure. You're expecting people, you're right. You're engaging with people. You see excellence. I'm thinking about your wife right now.
And then if the like moments, you know, like you're not your best. I'm just thinking about how does that impact the people that you've you've said, I see your greatness. I want to be in relationship with you. And then when they don't meet that standard, what does that look like?
Jamal Cornelious (18:05.124)
That's the question. think one of the good things is that it is very person specific. So I don't have this idealized version of what perfect or excellence looks like for everyone. It is very specific to that individual. So if I see what you're capable of and I see that you're working towards it, I always admire that. I'll encourage you. I'll try to help and remove those roadblocks. When I see somebody that has potential and just won't work towards it, it does rub me the wrong way. If I see wasted potential, it's a struggle.
Sarah Collins (18:10.266)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Collins (18:29.754)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (18:33.156)
And you've got empathy and individualization at 11 and 12. So I feel like you can kind of hear that as you're saying it's individualized for each person. And I feel like that empathy maybe comes through. Do you claim 11 and 12?
Jamal Cornelious (18:45.764)
Yeah. Yeah. I think it helps me in all the ways like individualization. I'm also in addition to being an a strength, a strength coach. I also coach track and field. So it's so I coach the local high school team and it's all about seeing your individual potential, feeling where you are today and what you're capable of today and what excellence looks like today. When I start practices, I will always put that frame and it's not about giving a hundred percent of what you had at your best. It's a hundred percent of what you have today.
Sarah Collins (18:56.344)
Okay.
Sarah Collins (19:07.591)
huh.
Sarah Collins (19:15.526)
Mmm.
Jamal Cornelious (19:15.726)
So what does excellence look like today if you're a little bit sore or you're under the weather? What can you reach towards today that's realistic, that still is you giving your all, but it's measured based on where you are today. So I do use individualization to kind of create that flexible expectation.
Sarah Collins (19:30.778)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (19:31.337)
Yeah, I absolutely love Sarah that you asked, you do you claim that individualization? Because prior to that story he was talking about, if I spot, if I spotted in you and you don't, if you don't take advantage of it, then we have a problem. Right. And it's that spotting that is that high individualization is number one for me. So I live in that box, right? Where I'm always spotting the incredibly unique or amazing things everybody can bring to a specific situation. And I hear that in you.
Sarah Collins (19:44.965)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (19:59.647)
But we keep dancing around one other theme in your top 10 that we haven't talked about yet. And that's going to be competition. You're part of a track team. You're seeing people and pushing them to be better. But you're also pushing to get that polished thing done maybe a little quicker than the people next to you. I I hear competition just ping ponging around all of these stories.
Sarah Collins (20:06.874)
Hmm.
Bill Dippel (20:23.774)
But that's all guessing from me. And as you know, from a strengths coach, we don't want to guess. Let's hear it from you. How does that competition come in?
Jamal Cornelious (20:30.768)
Competition is another one. Competition and maximizer. I want to be excellent and I want to be better than the next person. And I want everyone who is committing to their journey to be better than the next person. And it's something that my wife actually points out for me and tries to remind me that everyone else isn't as competitive. Maybe they don't want to be better or don't want to be, you know, at a whatever level you're envisioning for them. Maybe they don't want to work on that. Maybe they're okay where they are. And it's really difficult for me to accept that.
Sarah Collins (20:36.142)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (20:51.47)
Mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (20:58.562)
adding in my relator, it's really difficult for me to let those relationships, you know, just kind of fizzle back a little bit. And it does play a point in my friendships, the relationships that I have. If I don't feel like you are striving to be the best version of yourself, it's hard for me to have a long-term human connection with you that I feel is beyond surface level.
Sarah Collins (21:16.324)
Yeah, that's a really vulnerable place, like thing to say. Thank you.
Bill Dippel (21:16.694)
Well, and I and I would I would tell you yeah Thank you for that and I would tell you echo as well that the thought process keeps going around in my mind I can't care more than you do so as I'm working with people if you're not putting it in if you're not doing it But for me that's from a relationship point of view for me I don't want to be over invested and think we can do better and have you not just sit there and spin in the mud and I it lets down the relationship side for you
It sounds like it's more in that competition, the ability of individualization and all of that and influencing to say, don't, you know, we're not moving and I need to influence and move and I need to maximize. So I'm moving on. I'm going to be the honeybee that goes to the next project or process. Would that be fair?
Sarah Collins (22:03.685)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (22:06.81)
That part actually was a process for me, being able to say, let's move on because this person has decided that this is their peak. And that's from a professional setting, that's in a personal setting. I had to learn how to be okay with where people wanted to be, not where I saw they were capable of going. And that's still a daily reminder and challenge and something I work on in relationships to make sure that I'm not putting my expectations of excellence based on what I see as their potential on folks.
Sarah Collins (22:10.79)
Hmm.
Sarah Collins (22:22.394)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (22:33.67)
Yeah, I could totally see that as an ongoing struggle because we're always making new relationships and developing the relationships we have. And I just have to say from listening to you and looking at your strengths, I'm so not surprised that you're a coach, both professional as a CliftonStrengths coach and like a track and field coach. Like you, I feel like you were literally made to be a coach. Like the way you see people and push them to be the best and be able to influence them, which is really cool.
What I'm curious about as we think about perfectionism and the way you hold people to high standards, you know, we've talked about, okay, if someone's not meeting that being okay, saying I'm going to let that relationship kind of go. And so I'm not sort of holding them to standards that they're not willing to reach for the relationships that you don't want to let go. How can you tell when you've pushed someone too far? Like, do you have any signals or triggers? And maybe it's depending on the person, you know, but I'm thinking about
good friends, your wife, maybe your parents or siblings or whatever that looks like, these people that are maybe really important to you, do you ever say, I think I was pushing them when they didn't want to be pushed? And how do know when the maximizer has gone too far?
Jamal Cornelious (23:46.609)
Oh, it's usually not very subtle. There's usually a body language change if they're not very verbal or they communicate. It kind of spawns a small argument. And it's like the quintessential teen coming of age movie. It's like, I don't wanna be what you want me to be, dad. It's that kind of thing. Like it's the football coach pushing the athlete. So you have that moment of pushback, whether it's just in the body language or the feeling and you have to, the empathy helps me just kind of recognize it. Okay, this is a button for them.
Bill Dippel (23:48.798)
hahahaha
Sarah Collins (23:56.133)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (24:14.606)
Let me not worry about that. Let me just invest in the connection that we have and worry about not trying to push them somewhere else because technically that's not really our job. That's not the nature of my relationship with you. I didn't hire, you didn't hire me. You're not my client. We can just let that go, but I might revisit it from time to time.
Sarah Collins (24:25.06)
Right.
Sarah Collins (24:30.094)
Yeah, I think that's hard. I don't know if you guys think this, but I find the profession that we have all found ourselves in as strengths coaches, you we're out here helping people. I have a real hard time sometimes not pushing and coaching the people in my personal life because sort of similar to you, Jamal, like I see potential in people and I'm a cheerleader and I feel like I can see a thousand things that you could do to make your life better. Like if you come to me.
I really have to embrace that sort of like, you want to vent or do you want a solution? Cause I can solution with you all day. And if you're feeling tired, well, I can list off seven reasons why you're probably tired. It's a real, it's a real hard battle not to give that to all of those personal relationships. Do you guys find that? Or just me.
Jamal Cornelious (25:07.866)
You
Bill Dippel (25:16.617)
No, that's you. No, that's you, Sarah.
Sarah Collins (25:21.284)
No filter over here.
Jamal Cornelious (25:21.358)
No, that's that one. I can't turn it off either. It's always there in the background. My wife is actually really good at being one of the people who can remind me, like, hey, they may not be looking for that for you. You could just relax. Maybe they don't need to hear solutions from you. Maybe they're just talking.
Sarah Collins (25:34.224)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (25:37.79)
Well, speaking about the relaxation part of this as well as and as we look at your themes, Gallup wouldn't say this, but I would think this all the years that I think all of us have been coaches. We all form some opinions around all of the themes. But and when I look at your top 10, the word that comes to mind for me when I if I had you as a client and I was trying to look at and understand how we were going to start working together.
Everything I see in that top 10 for you is in my mind fast. So adaptability move, pivot, go, maximizer, push, go, run, communication, get it out, keep it moving, activator, go, jump, jump on it, ideation, fast, popcorn brain, go, move, positivity, I'm here, let's hear it, let's go, right, command, I will take it, let's run with it, competition, I'm keeping to run with it, woo, build a room, right, build a room, keep going. So, and then I look at the bottom of yours.
Sarah Collins (26:08.612)
Mmm.
Sarah Collins (26:15.909)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Collins (26:26.356)
He's making a really good point.
Bill Dippel (26:32.539)
And right at the bottom, I'm seeing consistency, discipline, focus. I mean, those are at the very bottom, which we tend to think of as really powerful, but maybe the slower thinking strengths where I have to put the time in and to move there. You've obviously done pretty well as a coach. You've done some stuff to get moving. How, how do you have to slow down when you need to think about, there a dynamic partnership in your life?
Sarah Collins (26:56.836)
Mmm.
Bill Dippel (27:01.246)
Or do you just make that huge, huge pivot in some way and think, I've got to start dealing with belief or maybe relater and maybe slow it down a bit?
Jamal Cornelious (27:13.232)
Well, that one's twofold, because that's something I had to recognize in myself early on. And in my career, I always had to find the right people to partner with. So I would always identify who was my strategic partner. Here's a great idea I have. Here's the first steps. Here's where I think we can go. Show me, look around the corners for us, poke holes in this. What else am I missing here? Help me see something else in this so we can make it great. This is actually where my maximizer, I think, helps me because...
my obsession with the excellence in it will allow me to deeply focus to get it to that point. So that's where I dial that up more than other, you know, other strengths, because I don't have that consistency, but I am fully committed to making sure this is great. So making sure that I can set aside the time to do that. That's where it really comes to play.
Sarah Collins (27:45.35)
Sarah Collins (27:59.013)
I love hearing you say this because as coaches, we know that people can make a lot of negative assumptions from a first glance at a report, right? So the deficit culture has shown us someone with your strengths. The first thing they could think is, I don't have any executing themes in my top 10. How am going to get things done? And as coaches, we say, like, everyone does all the domains. Everyone executes. Everybody strategically thinks, right? Everyone builds relationships.
So the way you're going to do that looks different. And what I love in your description, Jamal, is you're saying like, yeah, I do get a lot of stuff done and I do it really well. And it doesn't matter that I don't have any executing themes in my top 10 because I've got this maximizer. And I imagine competition, like Brandon Miller was on our podcasts this season and he talked about competition needing to prepare so intensely so they can win. And so it's like you're...
I imagine from what you're saying, like you are getting the things done that need to be done and you're doing them exceptionally well, but you're doing them from a place of maximizer competition and probably some strings of other things in there as well. And I just love that because it shows the audience, you can be a highly successful executor with any themes. It's just going to be how you do that. It's going to look different for you.
Jamal Cornelious (29:20.528)
Yeah, it's the commitment to excellence that makes me focus on the details and dive into the process because I know that excellence lies in the process. And that's something I learned from early on in athletics. You know, the difference between the world's, you know, top 10 % track athletes and the top 1 % is a very fine details. Literally the difference between a small 1 % angle degree on your, the angle of your foot, like how are you doing all the little things, right? That's the difference between an Olympian and someone who's top 100.
Sarah Collins (29:24.3)
yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (29:50.562)
It's those are the little things. And it's the same way when you're in the work workplace, it's that's the difference between being great or being pretty good at that thing.
Sarah Collins (29:50.918)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (29:54.736)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Collins (29:59.013)
Yeah. And I just want to point out Gallup will tell us the CliftonStrengths assessment is a development tool. It is not a hiring tool. And I know all the coaches out there, have clients that will say, but we can use it for hiring, right? we're, we're like, are you okay with it? Like we're like, we're going to do it. And right. And I just want to point out, this is why we don't do that.
Bill Dippel (30:15.74)
Yeah. Right. I see the power in it. Now I'm going to hire with it. Yeah.
Sarah Collins (30:23.546)
Because if you're like, I need a high achiever who's gonna get stuff done, you're gonna look for someone with those executing themes, right? Achiever, responsibility, you might pass on a Jamal thinking he's not gonna be able to do it when he could be the thing that takes your team to the next level. That is why we don't use that as a hiring tool, folks.
Jamal Cornelious (30:41.944)
One of the things that I tell people when they're building out their teams is really focus on the outcome and not the process. Because if you have something you want someone to deliver, how they get there is where you need to be flexible. They may not do it the way you have always done it. outside, I always give this disclaimer, outside of accounting, let's not be creative with your accounting. But everything else, there's, by all means, that pool is a business expense. Yeah, but it's necessary to have that flexibility.
Sarah Collins (30:46.646)
Exactly.
Sarah Collins (30:58.342)
Unless you're my accountant, in which case, let's see if we can be a little creative.
Bill Dippel (31:09.989)
Don't tell Sarah that my god, they're on the edge. They're on the edge of a pool. I don't know this is
Sarah Collins (31:12.324)
My God.
Jamal Cornelious (31:13.712)
I couldn't do a pool with small children. That's what frightens me. My kids are still little. Even with the swim lessons, I'm like, I'm glad we don't have one. We only have to do with that at grandma and grandpa's house.
Sarah Collins (31:25.862)
Yeah, yeah, I will tell you it has been the thing that has held me back, but our kids are six and seven now. We've been in swimming lessons for four years. I'm going to get an automatic cover and an alarm that tells me if something's been in the water too long. Like the paranoid person in me is with you.
Bill Dippel (31:41.117)
Ready? Well.
Sarah Collins (31:41.6)
But I do think it is a business expense. Now that we say creative accounting, I do think I will be having many business meetings by said pools.
Bill Dippel (31:45.384)
Clearly.
Bill Dippel (31:49.481)
Clearly yes, I wrote off my whole backyard just for all of my business meetings. So Jamal, let's let's jump backwards for a sec I'm curious on this one because you talked about dynamic partnerships and people you partner with the people that you you bring in to kind of think of those and You know, we all kind of spot people and connect with them in different ways. So Sarah brings communication and a ranger in her top ten that I don't they're
Sarah Collins (31:54.062)
I love that. I love that for us,
Bill Dippel (32:18.364)
in my floor. But so for instance, our partnership when we see each other, we bring certain dynamic things that we really appreciate in each other. When you're looking at other dynamic partnerships with people, what are you looking for? Like what are you looking for that? Hey, help me slow down and focus and discipline. Are you looking for that super go-go maximizer activator as well? When you're looking, what do you think you're drawn to?
Jamal Cornelious (32:46.532)
Yeah, I would say high strategic, high analytical people who can really dig into the details and in those relationships, I have to set myself up and know that I'm bringing this to you and I'm allowing you time to process so that you can bring me the best answers back. So I always look for that. Like, how can you see a pathway to connect the dots? Because I might have a great idea for my ideation. I might have a great on-ramp, a great runway for us to get started. But what are all the different milestones and stops that we need to have on this?
So I'm not necessarily a great project manager where I am detailed to detail and phase and to do list the task, but I am definitely a here's the product vision. Here's where we want to be now partner with me to map out what are the milestones and what do need to do along the way? And I will remove impediments. I will push through any roadblocks and together those people who have those iterative personalities, if they understand me and I understand them and we kind of set that out upfront, those that's really powerful.
Sarah Collins (33:41.297)
Yeah. I'm curious what you would advice you would give whether someone has Maximizer or someone is just a perfectionist, because that could come through a lot of strengths. And I'm curious what advice you would give to the perfectionist listening, because I think that perfectionism is sort of an epidemic in our society in some places with our high achievers, always thinking that they...
have to be perfect and I think that can come from a place of fear and it can be really paralyzing and exhausting. think it can kind of suffocate people around them, know, like perfectionism is really not possible. nothing's going to be perfect. So when you are coaching someone or a listener who has perfectionists, what advice would you give them to help them move?
to a better place mentally, socially, emotionally than being stuck on the perfect.
Jamal Cornelious (34:38.618)
Yeah, you can't let perfect be the enemy of good. think understanding what a perfect MVP, what that minimal viable product is gonna be, like what's the perfect first step? What's the perfect thing that we need to get out to market and get feedback on? So if you set that bar to say, this is the best version of this today, I'm gonna bring in my trusted advisors, get that feedback, and then we're gonna work towards the next version of perfect. Sometimes it allows you to say, this doesn't have to be a finished product now.
Sarah Collins (34:41.19)
Hmm.
Sarah Collins (35:05.414)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (35:05.498)
That's like the inventor in the lab who doesn't want to put something out there until everything is perfect. And then you get this great big product that you put together and nobody wants it because at no point did you think about, you know, I've got it perfect, but is it actually solving a problem? Does it have a purpose? So being able to connect with people who can be that sounding board and help you measure at each step of the way.
Sarah Collins (35:19.77)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (35:22.972)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (35:26.354)
Well, the theory on that always good MVP a wonderful idea. Can you can you talk to us for a second about when you've led a client to that end or where maybe in your personal life you've gone to MVP and said, good, I got it. That's all I need. And I've got my maximizer doesn't need to push this to the next level. Or have you really fought that struggle? Can you give us an actual working real world event where that's that you felt that?
because that talks about maximizer versus perfectionism.
Jamal Cornelious (35:58.159)
Yeah, yeah, that's a perennial struggle. will say one example from me, I was putting together a workshop where I had this great idea that I bounce around in my head and I iterate until it's good. And I put together this workshop and my wife tends to be one of my trusted advisors. When you're an entrepreneur, you have a smaller squad, so you bring in the people who are there. And I was like, let me run through this with you. in that MVP, were able to see, she was able to pull out a lot of questions because she has high strategic, futuristic.
Sarah Collins (36:25.69)
Mmm.
Jamal Cornelious (36:27.168)
know, individualization, she's got a lot of really good ones that I don't. So, and it was able to cover a lot of the basis and say, well, here's a question I have. Well, what about this? What about that? What are we trying to get out of this? You know, what are our key takeaways? So that gave me an opportunity to take that back and go back and be a little bit more creative and add in new activities, think about where I could pivot in those workshops. Did the same thing with like a lot of marketing in my previous life. I did a lot of work with like growth marketing, go to market strategy and.
I would come together with a great campaign idea. Here's the bones. Here's what I think is going to be a really good thing. And I would bring it to one of my trusted partners and he had a really high strategic and was always the person who could say, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? Here are the compliance risks that we need to think about. Let's add this in and, you know, come back to the drawing. But I think we're in a really good spot. It's a great idea. You do need to have somebody you trust so they can start with a, hey, that might be a good idea or not.
Bill Dippel (37:19.711)
Well, you mentioned trust. You also have to have somebody where you see that idea as a good one. Like if I hit you with five strategies around this thing you're bringing me and they all kind of tank or, you know, they suck in their own way, you're going to I imagine that's pretty demotivating for you.
Jamal Cornelious (37:37.104)
100%. I actually have a lot of ideas that I just won't bring to the forefront if I don't feel like they're good enough or ready to like have a conversation about. So I tend to try to filter on my own to hope that what I'm bringing is the best version of that starting. And then from there we can get some feedback.
Sarah Collins (37:43.291)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (37:53.937)
Do you find when people are those strategic partners that you enlist for their help and feedback, do you find when they give it to you, your maximizer is really accepting of it? Or do you find that competition and command can sometimes like, I'm going to say battle, but I mean it in a good way of like, are you sort of challenging? Well, yeah, I already thought about this. Here's this reason and like kind of, you know, perfecting it to a different level or do you kind of just like take it in and accept it?
Jamal Cornelious (38:22.958)
I challenge while processing and accepting. That's a really great question because you'll get the feedback in your initial thought is no, it's already great. This is it. Like we're good. And as you start to talk through and respond to the questions they have, you recognize the holes and you say, okay, that's a great question. Let me go back and make sure I make note of that, add that. But there's always the initial resistance because you're going to be really close to an idea that you felt was good enough to bring to a person, especially with Maximizer.
Sarah Collins (38:30.062)
Yeah!
Sarah Collins (38:38.775)
Mhm.
Sarah Collins (38:44.271)
Yeah.
Right, right, yeah, that maximizer's like, no, I'm bringing this to you because it's good. And I would be curious with like your, with your strengths, if you're ever like, hey, I'm bringing this to you because it's good, what do you think? And you're kind of, I'm just projecting, so you're welcome to reject this idea, but kind of maybe thinking like, please give me compliments about how great it is. And then when they're like, what about this? I could see being like, no, it's great.
Jamal Cornelious (38:51.662)
Yes.
Jamal Cornelious (39:12.974)
Ha ha ha!
Sarah Collins (39:14.146)
You were just supposed to look at it and say, wow, that was a great idea.
Jamal Cornelious (39:18.552)
You know, I've some of the best the people I enlist for their their feedback when it's in that spot, they are very much, you know, improv minded. There's a yes and like this is good. And let's add this like this is a good starting point. And have you thought about that? So they've learned how to give feedback to me and really just to others are really, really good at that.
Sarah Collins (39:31.384)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (39:37.637)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (39:37.777)
Let's get personal on that for a second. Talk about your marriage. How about Maximizer? Right? Is that a you guys sometimes come into that or what is what are her strengths? What is she bringing to that? And how do those how do those bump into each other? Or maybe Maximizer is the fuel that got you exactly where you need to be.
Sarah Collins (39:56.337)
Bill, are you just trying to bring your own marriage into this conversation? Bill is married to a maximizer listeners. Bill is married to a maximizer.
Bill Dippel (39:59.104)
I am not actually no, no.
Jamal Cornelious (39:59.769)
Ho ho ho ho ho!
Bill Dippel (40:03.99)
I am a fantastic maximizer. She will always drive and that's great. And how does it work on your side?
Jamal Cornelious (40:11.428)
Yeah, you know, I said in the beginning, my wife calls me a hundred percenter. So she knows that if I'm doing something interested in it, committed to it.
I'm going to be all in and that could be as simple as we're at an event and I'm going to be the person who stays until we close because I want to get every single connection I can out of that with my woo and maximizer. Or if I'm committed to, you know, a civic organization, she knows that I'm going to volunteer at every one of those things. So for us, it calls the rub, especially in that middle space, right before we were really getting to that transition to have children. I was way too committed to too many things. And because I'm committed, I'm a hundred percent in and a hundred percent out.
So I had several board commitments that I was on and she was like, you've got to choose something. You've got to start to whittle this down. What's going to be your thing? You can't do five. Let's pick one. it took me a while to really understand like, this is a challenge for her. This is also a commitment for too much of our time. So how do I commit to the thing that I can actually do at my best, give them everything and then move to the end, just kind of protect that time. So that always caused a little bit of a rub. So she's really good at
calling me on that and I've been really good at learning to receive it.
Sarah Collins (41:19.908)
That's a great description. How old are your children?
Jamal Cornelious (41:23.128)
My girls are eight and five, so I'm a girl dad through and through.
Sarah Collins (41:26.552)
Okay, so do you see the Maximizer come out as a dad? Eight and five year olds, mean, as your five year old in kindergarten yet?
Jamal Cornelious (41:34.34)
She just started kindergarten, so we are on that journey riding the bus. It's adorable and terrifying.
Sarah Collins (41:36.279)
Okay
Sarah Collins (41:40.379)
All right. My kids, have twins that are six, two girls and a boy that's seven. So I'm right there with you age wise. And our twins also started kindergarten. So we're at the same sort of parenting junction. I'm feeling like, so I'm curious, right? They're getting in school, probably involved in activities. Do you find as a dad, how does that perfectionism, maximizer kind of, how do you straddle that line as you're trying to push them to be?
the best versions of themselves, or do you?
Jamal Cornelious (42:11.62)
that's a little bit more flexible as a parent. And part of that comes from having spent many of my early years as an athlete. And I had so many teammates whose parents put them in things and pushed them for their vision very, very early on. And they forced this, you're gonna be a football player, you're gonna be a Olympian in track and field. And those kids almost to a person got to college, got D1 scholarships and burned out after the first year. And so the one thing that I've always kept in the forefront is and from my kids is,
Sarah Collins (42:14.404)
Mmm.
Sarah Collins (42:25.349)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (42:37.318)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (42:41.326)
I want you to do the things that you you seem to be good at, that you're interested in. Let's try it, but let's find your thing before we try to focus on any one thing and push you in it. We're going to try to be good at whatever we do. So if you sign up for it, we're going to go after it. We're going to give it your all, give it a hundred percent. And if that doesn't work out after that season, we can, you know, transition, but I'm not going to force my vision of your life. I just want to make sure you know what it is to try hard, be at your best and find the areas where you're really good and keep pouring into those.
Sarah Collins (42:55.366)
100%.
Bill Dippel (43:09.872)
Yeah, it almost sounds like from a family point of view you're willing to float to the top those relationship themes when you know it's a family component you're all about, let's look at empathy and individualization, let's keep the positivity here, let's do the relator, let's understand that you have a different feeling about this. And that's fantastic. From a parenting point of view
Sarah Collins (43:09.893)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (43:18.564)
Mm-hmm.
Bill Dippel (43:36.525)
I actually am picking up my third so totally different stage here. I'm picking up my 13 year old grandson today, one of 14 grandchildren. So I'm picking up my 13 year old from school today and taking him to play golf because he just started playing golf and he absolutely loves it. And he's a great athlete. He's a wonderful quarterback, wonderful arm, good body mechanic. So his golf is actually pretty good.
And he's lately been calling me to say, hey, I love golf, love it, love it better than basketball, baseball. I don't know about football yet. We'll see. Can we keep doing it? And it just tugs that relationship component in me. I absolutely want to be there for you. He said, you don't have to drive all the way to my school and pick me up. I'll take the bus home. I'm like, no, take your bag. Take your bag to school. I'll pick you up right at two. We'll get an extra five holes in that way. we'll make, you know, I want to I want to push that with him.
So I hear you when you say it's the relationship side, but then I I rely on him to book it with me. He's got to call me because I realize again, I can't care more than you do. I will end up calling him all week and say, let's go, let's go, let's go. And he's like, I can't this weekend. He kind of called me yesterday and he said, hey, Saturday, Sunday, I'm busy with my dad. I'm going to go do some some stuff and I'm doing this and that. And I was a little.
gosh darn it. I lost the relationship moment. He goes, but I could play Friday afternoon if we could fit it in. I was like, now you're talking my story, right? I'll come to school. Let me get it. Let's make it happen. So I love that you bring the relationship side up when you're thinking of the kids, the family, the wife, that and is that how you see that as that relationship being floated at that point? Or is it?
really just pure influencing with the kids where you influence to the point you know you should step back.
Jamal Cornelious (45:38.18)
You know, that one's a really good balance. First of all, the world needs more grandparents like you. Speaking as a parent with younger children, we need more grandparents who are jumping in there because the journey is hard in those early years. You know that firsthand.
Sarah Collins (45:46.182)
Mm-hmm.
Bill Dippel (45:48.8)
It is. Yeah. And by the way, I was I was adopted. My mother was adopted. I wasn't. My mother was adopted and my grandfather, my adoptive grandfather was the number one person in my whole life. So I came into all of these situations thinking no matter what your relationship is, when you came in, you can be that person. So thank you for the acknowledgment. But you're absolutely right. If you're listening to this, I don't care if you're a step.
father, an adopted parent, you can make a difference if you're willing to be there and be there for the kid, in my opinion. yeah, yeah. So anyway, so go on. I'm sorry to cut you off.
Jamal Cornelious (46:22.928)
Just show up and care. Yeah.
No, for my kids, I will say that my wife has high relator and individualization top five. So those are really, really helpful that they give us a really good balance because she will see things in the kids that I may not see as early. And she'll say they seem like they are good at this, but I think they really care more about that thing. So she helps me kind of filter and because, you know, my maximizer still won't turn off. Like I want my girls to start playing golf because I see their coordination. I see what they can do. They're very cerebral. Like you're to be good at this. But
Sarah Collins (46:47.994)
Hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (46:58.584)
She's like, hey, one thing at a time, this is where they really seem interested in. They actually just want to dance. They don't care about that. But they're really out there just playing with their friends. it helps. I coached my daughter's soccer team for the first three years. And one of the things that I learned is that some kids just want to get out there and do cartwheels and pick dandelions. So you learn which kids are coming back to you for feedback. Like, coach, how'd I do? How's it going? So I had a chance to, you know.
Sarah Collins (47:05.232)
Right.
Bill Dippel (47:06.809)
He just wanted to dance.
Sarah Collins (47:18.342)
yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (47:25.388)
measure those expectations. So I try to bring that and lean on my wife to be that person at home to see the individual components of what my girls are really interested in.
Sarah Collins (47:33.895)
Yeah, Jamal, I lead a coaching group through our local community called Strong as a Mother. We have had a father in it before, but it's basically helping mothers, parents understand how their CliftonStrengths show up in parenthood and in their motherhood or fatherhood. And what is so fascinating is a lot of the people who are in my group have used strengths professionally.
And then when we sit down and say, how does this show up at home? How does this influence you, who you are as a parent, which is always evolving. mean, everything is always changing. Our professional lives are evolving too. But when you think of parenting, you go like every stage of your kid, they're changing. And then you add multiple kids. So you've got different stages, right? And so how you're showing up for them, it's evolving so much. And I just always find it fascinating to see
the people in the group like open their mind like, whoa, at work, my communication shows up this way. But then like at home, that's barely even showing up. I'm leaning on these things and like it unlocks potential because people will say, my God, what if I actually use my strategic at home? What would that look like? And just the way that we have sort of like, we don't realize these are our talents everywhere.
And so to like analyze yourself professionally and then personally, and personally you could do like with your children, if you're a parent, you could do it with your parents. How are you dealing with your parents, right? With your friends. It's so interesting. These talents are coming up, but they really kind of shape shift depending on the environment. And a lot of times we only intentionally use them at work. So it's like, wow, if you intentionally think about how they show up at home, which I think a lot of us strengths coaches are doing that.
But for the audience who's listening, it's like, yeah, take a second and go through your top five or your top 10 and say, how does this show up for me in parenthood? You might be surprised to see what you're using and what you're not using. And you might be able to unlock some tips and tricks for yourself to make things a little bit easier. Because at work, I always talk about, hopefully you're in a job where you can try to be your best. Right. Hopefully if you're working for someone,
Sarah Collins (49:49.253)
They say, hey, we want you in the right seat on the bus. We want you to do the things you're the best at and the other stuff will delegate to other people. That's what we're looking for. And a lot of times we can do that, especially for businesses and organizations who are utilizing strengths. They want everyone to do the thing in their lane, but at home you kind of have to do everything. You might hate it.
Jamal Cornelious (50:08.164)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Collins (50:10.18)
but you have to do it, no one else is there. Like you and your partner have to figure out bath time, you have to figure out bedtime, you have to figure out who's gonna sign up for all the school stuff and add money to the lunch thing and all of these things. And you might all hate that. it's really interesting to think how do I engage my talents to do more and parent more the way that I am and how do I manage all the things that suck?
Bill Dippel (50:36.197)
Wow Can I just say today's Sarah soapbox moment? provided by Collins we are Collins collective so Really well said Sarah and as a parent I I hear that I I've talked to you off and on we've we've been able to Discourse on those and feel really good again I don't know your kids like we've never met all of that. But as a mother
Sarah Collins (50:39.071)
Yeah, I knew.
Jamal Cornelious (50:41.018)
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (51:03.941)
just the fact that you're willing to lead that group and Ingratiate that with all of them and hear them out and and hold that space for them. I again I have to imagine that's a an incredible learning and Ideation like production tool for them as well. So kudos to you on that Yeah, just sending out subtle subtle loves subtle love so Well, let's talk about subtle loves for a second Jamal. We're gonna we're gonna
Sarah Collins (51:22.576)
Thank you. Thank you.
Jamal Cornelious (51:23.716)
Yeah, I love that. Parenting is a thankless job. Yeah.
Sarah Collins (51:27.586)
It is a thankless job.
Bill Dippel (51:33.423)
come into a part of our show where we talk about a couple of a couple of ways that you're going to come at us with some ideas around your strengths. So let's start with your firework moment today. When is give me one or one or maybe two of your themes where you are all over it, right? It might be maximizer, but we've covered a lot of themes today.
So when you're in that flow, when you're hitting on all levels, when the fireworks are going off and the sparklies are there and you're feeling it and everyone around you is, what teams that play for you?
Jamal Cornelious (52:08.112)
Yeah, my top, think communication is something that I have spent my whole career, my whole life really working at. Wasn't something that was as natural to me early on and you know, was a little bit shy as a kid, it's kinda hard to believe now, but communication's one of those where I love to tell stories, be on a stage, communicate with folks and represent organizations and I usually pair that a lot with my adaptability. So if you need to do it last minute.
I got you back. Like let's hop on the stage tomorrow. I can pinch hit for whoever can't do the thing. I'll get out there and make it happen. communication is a big one. But for me, communication is also one that I've had to be cognizant of and make sure that I'm dialing it down intentionally. So that part of communication for me is actively creating space for others where I would have taken the microphone. So in those meeting spaces, that's a big one for me. Command is one that's also high up there for me. I am
Sarah Collins (52:45.254)
Mmm.
Jamal Cornelious (52:59.426)
I just naturally will start going. have my friend group is hilarious because they've talked about me since since we were in college together and they will just say, you know, you've got this boundless confidence and it's really just rooted in. just I have an idea that we're going this way. Things are going to work out. Like, let's start moving. And even if like we'll be in a foreign country and I'll just say, yeah, we're going this way. I don't know. My map's not working. My phone battery is dead, but we're going this way. It's going to be OK.
Sarah Collins (53:19.388)
my gosh.
Bill Dippel (53:24.228)
I see that command and positivity structured together right there. And they're next to each other, right? Where you're like, it'll work out. Yeah, exactly. It's good. No matter what.
Sarah Collins (53:28.034)
Yes. And that adaptability? Don't worry, it's going be fine.
Jamal Cornelious (53:28.591)
Yeah.
Yes, it's going to work out. We're going this way. It's going to be okay.
Sarah Collins (53:35.534)
Yes, and and taking the command is saying, no, we're going this way. This is the way everybody follow me. We're going to dinner now and we're going down this street.
Jamal Cornelious (53:40.602)
Yeah, this is the way.
Bill Dippel (53:44.901)
And we're going to find something great. It'll be fantastic. We're all going to love it. And positively, all of us having that positive energy fuels and motivates you. So you are that rudder. And by the way, even on this podcast, your communication shows through in huge waves, Jamal. So thank you for having that and bringing that to us. So but you don't get off the hook that easy, right? We know.
Sarah Collins (54:01.53)
Mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (54:03.012)
Hey.
Jamal Cornelious (54:09.252)
Hehehehehe
Bill Dippel (54:10.348)
when the fireworks are happening and now we're curious about the dumpster fire. So when when have some of your themes or one of them lead you into that dumpster fire where you're like, I had no idea this was going to happen. I wish I wish I could have avoided this this nightmare mess. Which themes that play for you at that at those moments in your life?
Jamal Cornelious (54:34.274)
I will say that simultaneously my superpower with adaptability is I can be flexible in any moment, but I will procrastinate to no end. And that's where I think a dump to fire will show up for me because I assume that I have more time to make something happen and now I'm in a crunch and now I'm more pulling an all nighter to make something happen. And I need the right people to say, hey, let's get started early. Cause otherwise if it's left to my own devices, sometimes I'll wait until the last minute.
Sarah Collins (54:42.022)
Hmm?
Sarah Collins (55:00.199)
And I could see that maximizer and adaptability really going toe to toe in a big fight there.
Bill Dippel (55:04.804)
just by banging heads, right?
Jamal Cornelious (55:05.998)
Yeah, and it's... I'm gonna wait till the last minute and even though I waited till the last minute, I expect it to be excellent when I do. It doesn't make any actual sense. Not at all, right?
Sarah Collins (55:12.39)
Not an unrealistic expectation at all.
Bill Dippel (55:18.436)
I see that adaptability and activator. It's like squirrel, you know, or wait, you know, oh, another squirrel. Wait, we can get that. So.
Jamal Cornelious (55:22.074)
Yes!
Sarah Collins (55:26.094)
Yeah, and ideation. Ooh, do you feel that you start a lot of things and then you're like, now I have to make all of these perfect? Are you able to let go of things that you started with that ideation, activator adaptability?
Jamal Cornelious (55:26.192)
Yes.
Jamal Cornelious (55:39.573)
I also have a lot of tabs open. So, so yeah, I start a lot of things and I feel like I'm going to come back to them and they will, you know, hopefully in the best case scenarios, I let some of them go long enough to focus on the most important things, but I always leave things kind of going because I don't want to lose my place where this idea was. So I have a notebook full of different ideas, workshops, all kinds of things that I just like to do. Some of them I haven't done. Some of them I haven't even planned to do or have a place to do it.
Sarah Collins (55:42.476)
Yeah. Relatable.
Bill Dippel (55:43.428)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Sarah Collins (55:58.511)
Yeah.
Jamal Cornelious (56:07.844)
But it's just an idea. Like I will get woken up in middle of the night and can't go back to sleep until I write down some ideas.
Sarah Collins (56:12.902)
Yeah. Do you find, sorry, I know we're trying to wrap up, but I'm so curious. Do you find that sometimes with all those ideas, you will prioritize the one that has the most visibility? I'm just thinking with all these influencing themes, right? Like, okay, I have these great ideas. Well, this one has more visibility in the world. People are gonna see it, it's gonna have a big impact or whoever is maybe a big organization. Do you find they'll be like, put all of these on the back burner, because now this one has more.
Bill Dippel (56:28.195)
Great, great question.
Sarah Collins (56:41.582)
whatever influencing power does that happen?
Jamal Cornelious (56:45.454)
Absolutely, that is spot on. And I think I also frame that because that also has the opportunity to do the greatest good. If it can be the biggest thing, it can have the biggest impact. If it has the most visibility, it can reach more people. I can do more of the things that I'm meant to do with it. So those will get priority. if sometimes if you have competing interests, I have a smaller group and a larger group, the audience of 100 people might get priority first over the audience of seven.
Sarah Collins (56:51.44)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (57:10.436)
Yeah, yeah. And that's both, I imagine, firework moments and dumpster fire moments, right? Like it's all kind of the same, depending on which group you're in.
Jamal Cornelious (57:16.335)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bill Dippel (57:21.857)
Yeah, what we were trying to accomplish there. well, Jamal, you've definitely proved one thing. We need to have total strangers on the podcast more often. So I know.
Sarah Collins (57:24.261)
Yeah.
Sarah Collins (57:30.214)
I know, I love it. I love it. I feel like my curiosity is on fire with you, Jamal, and you have been great at receiving it. All of these influencing themes, that high communication and just the awareness, the self-awareness of that maximizer, it has been an excellent representation for the pod. So I am just so grateful that you took the time to be with us today.
Jamal Cornelious (57:30.415)
You
Jamal Cornelious (57:50.736)
really appreciate you guys having me. It's been a blast. can talk strengths or anything or parenting or grandparenting anytime.
Bill Dippel (57:59.076)
And I love doing it we do we Sarah and I compare notes when we're in the background of this about parenting co-parenting Generally, we're picking on each other. I think that's you know, that's probably part of the relationship but Always having another voice would would always be helpful in that especially with you two having such age aware and in similar children in that so that's Yeah, that's something we may take you up on Jamal. It'd be awesome. So
Sarah Collins (58:20.486)
Mm-hmm.
Jamal Cornelious (58:26.682)
Yeah, we'll do a gen alpha strength series.
Bill Dippel (58:28.781)
We'll do it. We'll do it. Great. Now I'm going to tune in one day and I'll see a Jamal and Sarah podcast on parenting. I'll be like, great.
Sarah Collins (58:29.412)
Love it.
Sarah Collins (58:36.486)
You'll be like, I'm not hurt. I'm not hurt.
Jamal Cornelious (58:41.316)
You're gonna be our first guest. You're gonna be our special mystery guest every time.
Bill Dippel (58:41.643)
I'm not I'm not That exactly what is parent? What does parenting look like from the grand from the grandfather side, right? Yeah parenting on fire. Is that is that what the
Sarah Collins (58:49.349)
Yeah.
Parenting on fire, which honestly is a great representation because I do feel like that signals how great and terrible it is My parenting does feel on fire most of the time and not in a good way
Jamal Cornelious (59:03.31)
Yeah, parenting's like the movie, right? Everything, everywhere, all at once. That's it.
Sarah Collins (59:06.629)
Mm-hmm.
Bill Dippel (59:07.235)
So good. Well, Jamal, thank you so much for all of your time today. It's been absolutely a joy to have you on and it's been great to meet you since we hadn't met previous to this. So thank you very much for coming on.
Jamal Cornelious (59:20.176)
Appreciate you having me. been a fantastic, you know, I don't know how much time we've been talking, but it's been a minute and we, it's been a pleasure. Absolute pleasure.
Sarah Collins (59:26.31)
Literally like one hour. We've been a great hour.
Bill Dippel (59:28.339)
one hour. Yep, if I can wrap this up in the next 30 seconds, it's a one hour episode. we are we are there. So Jamal again, thank you very much. Loved having you there for you and for all of our arsonists today. We thank you so much for being here and being honest, sharing and listening and jumping in with us. So with that, I think, you know, I we have to wrap it up with a we'll talk soon.
Sarah Collins (59:54.982)
Bye!
Sarah Collins (01:00:01.317)
We ended it.